####November 2, 2014 ###Participants

###Introduction & Focus * Story based on Cupid and Psyche by Apuleius * CS Lewis did not like the fact that the palace was visible to the sisters in the original story * Plot summary of The Golden Ass, which contains Cupid and Psyche * Text as a religious conversion text * The Screwtape Letters is famous for its fiction accounts that have Christian/religious significance * Shift in religious belief at the end of Till We Have Faces * If we want to think of this as a Christian conversion story, what is the conversion and when does it happen? * Role of philosophy: Fox is usually not any one type of philosophy, a mash-up of various teachings * Curiositas: meddlesomeness (Latin); being a busybody, involved in everyone’s business, bad thing in ancient philosophy * Till We Have Faces: Orual gets in everyone’s business, which leads to her spiritual downfall * What is the relationship between philosophical understanding and religious understanding? Is it a contradiction, or is there a way of combining the two? * Fox - philosophy * Psyche - fully religious * Priest of Ungit - religious but not really? * What is justice? * Throughout the book: is Orual actually a good person? * This theme culminates in a trial scene * Not convinced that the gods are just here, but are we suppose to?

###Discussion ####If we want to think of this as a Christian conversion story, what is the conversion and when does it happen? * Jenny: I think the point of conversion starts after Orual’s conversation with Bardia’s wife, Ansit. She takes off her veil for the first time after so long in order to explain to Ansit that there’s no need to be jealous of her, but then realizes that her “love” for Bardia was devouring, just like her overbearing love for Psyche that eventually caused her exile. Orual really starts to rethink about many things and how she reacted to certain events in her past. * Nirlipta: Orual didn’t trust gods more than the fact that she didn’t believing them, and Psyche had the faith that Orual never had. I think the turning point for Orual was when she lost everything she cared about - Psyche, Fox, Bardia, her father, etc. - and she was getting old. That was the point of conversion for her. * Jamie: CS Lewis was not Christian until later part of his life, right? * Chris: Yes, he was persuaded by JRR Tolkien * Jamie: This conversion seems autobiographical * Jenny: This story has always haunted him, so it would make sense for him to perhaps insert personal elements through this. * Chris: The cult of ISIS can be considered a parallel to cult of Christianity in its earlier stages. Several people before and after CS Lewis who have independently seen Apuleius as a proto-Christian text. * Jenny: What did you guys think of Psyches’ tasks and how both sisters did them together? * Chris: It was interesting that he gave what are Psyche’s tasks to the sister - not quite sure how I understand it, nature of sin and punishment in the Christian context as opposed to the pagan context * Jamie: I feel like in Greek myth, gods just screw you over. In a Christian text, the divine has some sort of correlation * Jacky: Orual is given this second opportunity by the grace of god to undergo this conversion process in which she becomes Psyche by doing these tasks. Compared to the original story, the sister just jumps off and dies. In this case, Orual knows she’ll get punished by the gods somehow. That never really happens. In a sense, she does get her punishment/anguish over what just happened. In the end we see visions of her anguish somehow translating into these asks that Psyche was assigned to, and she becomes Psyche in a sense. Orual takes on her “queen” persona as the story develops, but she rediscovers her original nature by connections from her earlier life and by her own understanding. She would not have had an opportunity to be converted if the gods didn’t care, so I think it was punishment on the surface, but gods showed sympathy to her. * Nirlipta: What would happen if Orual wasn’t born ugly? * Kathy: I think it’s the fundamental question of the book. In the original, both sisters were beautiful, but Psyche was more beautiful, which showcases more jealousy and so redemption wouldn’t make much sense. The relationship between Psyche and Orual would still be possible, but the transformation would be less significant. * Jacky: The veil! In the end, Orual sees herself as Psyche, but this is only after the veiling and unveiling of her self through the events of the book. The title of the book points towards the problem of seeing and understanding what you’re seeing; the ugly thing - both physically and spiritually - makes this point more obvious. Orual goes through this phase of veiling/burying her old weak/womanly self. It makes sense in the context of her conversion, since her complaint is that the gods are not showing themselves to her, but really, she didn’t allow herself to see the gods. * Chris: When Orual goes to see Psyche, she can’t see the palace, so she reaches certain conclusions. When she puts on the veil, she knows the reason why she does this, but everyone else jumps to certain conclusions. There’s a running theme of people not being able to see and leaping to conclusions, when in reality, they’re not accepting certain conclusions staring at them in the face. * Jenny: There’s an interesting concept of the veil and how it covered up not only herself, but also her past. When Orual started wearing the veil and subsequently became queen, she restarted her life in a way, by disconnecting herself with her past. This causes her to lose sight of herself personally since she’s been burying herself with work, and can only really see herself from a distance. * Kathy: Agree, the power of it comes from it being one-way, you can see out of it, but people can’t see from the outside. The idea is that Psyche can’t look at her husband - can we read that as a test of faith? * Chris: I think in CS Lewis, you have to take it as a test of faith. This was less clear in the original version, on why the god doesn’t want Psyche to see him. That theme was more along the line of don’t meddle things that are not your business. * Shiro: It sounds like a test of faith, but also reinforces the blind belief of Psyche and more critical and realistic of Orual. I ultimately have a more favorable impression of Orual and not Psyche. * Chris: The part of Cupid stabbing with arrow was not in the original story. * Jamie: There’s a parallel between Cupid “messing up” because Psyche is so beautiful, and Psyche “messing up” when she sees that Cupid is beautiful. * Chris: The Golden Ass was supposed to be comedic because it’s full of stock figures, and to a certain degree, Cupid and Psyche are stock figures of blind young lovers.

####What is justice? * Chris: Who would you rule for in the trial? (Orual vs. gods) * Nirlipta: I think Orual just ranted. To be honest I would rule for the gods, because everything Orual did was self-inflicted, except for her ugliness. When Psyche first faced gods, she was ashamed. * Kathy: I’m not sure if I would make a ruling, but Orual lied to herself a lot throughout the book. Her putting things into words is a way for us to realize that things are not as legitimate as we think they are. The role of articulation is meant to be a process for Orual to clarify things. She deluded herself, so I would not rule in favor of her. * Nirlipta: There are many types of love between Orual and Pysche, but one of them is love of divine vs. mortal love. Mortal love is always more selfish, and this kind of love ruined Orual’s life. * Chris: This is a major theme in The Screwtape Letters as well as a theme in Christian literature. * Nirlipta: Mortal love will keep you from divine love * Kathy: Divine love bothered me - the tests seem kind of selfish? * Jacky: Psyche doesn’t really change through the tests, but it allowed Orual to open and become converted. * Nirlipta: The tests led both of them to the same place at the end. Psyche’s tests led her back to Orual, but the tests allowed Orual to come back spiritually. * Jenny: This reminds me of the prodigal son parable and the theme of him returning home not just physically, but also spiritually. * Kathy: I think she was finally aware of the flaws of mortal love when she takes off her veil to Ansit. * Shiro: Orual had more pragmatic motives, and the anguish she feels is more like what everyone feels when they’re old and dying. I think she decides to call to the reader for sympathy, and the book overall paints a bleak picture of an old woman. * Jenny: Shiro, going back to your earlier opinion, why did you side with Orual over Psyche? * Shiro: I just thought that Orual’s actions made more sense logically and I could see the reasons why she did what she did, where as Psyche seemed too carefree. The judgment scene at the end where Orual was reading her complaint seemed to be internal conversations with herself rather than between her and the judges. * Chris: Orual doesn’t actually receive an answer, the answer comes from herself. This ties in with the theme that the judgment should be within yourself. The gods never did anything to punish her, but rather, she felt the shame within herself. * Jenny: I agree with Chris, perhaps the gods put her in these situations for her to realize and see her faults and misjudgments. * Jacky: Yes, and based on the line that if the gods were just, we’d all be screwed. Instead of giving her a punishment, they gave her a chance to be converted through different circumstances. * Kathy: But it seems like justice is not a very Christian idea. * Chris: In literature from the 3rd/4th century, one charges the Pagans made to the Christians was that during the Egyptian plagues, why did God harden Pharoh’s heart while telling him to do certain things? This resulted in a split between the Gnostic Christianity (God of justice in the Old Testment vs. God of love in the New Testment) vs the mainstream Christianity (justice & love in one God) * Jacky: There’s a parable of the prodigal son in the Lotus Sutra as well. * Shiro: Question - the son ended happily ever after, but Orual’s ending didn’t seem so rosy? * Jacky: I guess you could always interpret this “happy ending” in her spiritual achievement. * Kathy: Are we suppose to ignore her ruling period? After all, I thought she was a pretty good ruler. All of that was kind of glossed over in favor of her “redemption” and her relationship with the divine. I think that these two are independent of her human achievement. * Chris: To a protestant Christian, none of her deeds count for anything, only her spiritual state matters. I agree to a certain extent, but I also think she should get more credit for her ruling, and that the gods are not just in this book. * Nirlipta: I feel like the greek gods are more human than gods * Jenny: I always thought when she becamse the Queen, she took on a new identify, one that was different from her identity before Psyche was exiled. * Nirlipta: Maybe that’s her coping mechanism. * Jenny: Psych also saw herself as a motherly figure towards Psyche, so maybe to her, losing Psyche was almost like losing a child. * Chris: Yes, her nickname Maia means “midwife/mother”. * Kathy: Do you think Psyche’s love towards Orual was divine love? * Jenny: Yes, she seemed to be the wiser of the two and saw the bigger picture that concerned her spiritual happiness rather than her humanly happiness with Orual.

####Role of philosophy in this novel * Jenny: So before I read the book, I always thought of the Fox as the seductive and tricking figure from Chinese mythos. But it was interesting to see him as a philosophical figure. * Chris: Fox represents the rational mind vs. Psyche’s more spiritual and believing mind. Scientific thinking and reasoning can be both a hindrance and benefit for faith, and this is an antithesis going back to the ancient times. There’s the question of what is death, and is it something we should be afraid of? The answer is “no” according to philosophy. In modern time, most people would turn to religion when talking about death. Psyche uses philosophy in certain circumstances, but deliberately does not in other circumstances (e.g. identity of her husband). * Kathy: I think Orual misuses her philosophical upbringing to try and figure out who the husband is, and misses the whole point as a result. * Jenny: It’s like trying to use a microscope to observe an elephant. She did see the palace at one point, but it disappeared almost immediately. * Nirlipta: Right, I think it says that she could see it, she just didn’t want to believe it, so it disappeared. * Chris: CS Lewis says sometimes you can use rationality to mask the true reasons for what you do. * Nirlipta: It’s kind of like the parents mentality. * Jenny: Yeah, and perhaps I agree with the child’s point of view more? * Kathy: Parents come from a position of love, but often makes you stop whatever they don’t want you to do by explaining some rational reason.